On the Wednesday version of Set Piece Analysts’ daily podcast, SPAs Jeff Kassouf, Johnathan Starling, Kartik Krishnaiyer and Richard Farley hand out their end-of-year awards for the international world, following-up on Tuesday’s club pod by walking through 2009’s best players, coaches, leagues, stories, memories.
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This week's Set Piece Analysts' daily podcasts will focus on the international competitions going-on across the globe: UEFA and CONCACAF Champions Leagues, Copa Libertadores, and even some talk about AFC and UEFA Women's Champions League.
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Just a comment on the Gold Cup thing, here was the US roster that day:
Perkins, Heaps, Goodson, Marshall, Pearce, Rogers, Beckerman, Holden, Arnaud, Pause, Ching (Cooper, Quaranta, and Cronin used as subs)
Granted, getting beat 5-0 is embarassing, but that team stinks. Who are you considering “A” team players off that team? Holden and possibly Ching. No one else will ever see a pitch in South Africa, except on TV.
Here is the lineup for the qualifier six weeks later at the Azteca:
Howard, Cherundolo, Onyewu, DeMerit, Bocanegra, Donovan, Bradley, Clark, Dempsey, Davies, Ching (Feilhaber, Holden, Altidore used as subs).
So you have the two overlappers, but that’s it. Again, not trying to defend the Gold Cup disaster, but that second US team should have gotten a point at the Azteca, which is about as good as you can do.
If I had to run a lineup out there for South Africa right now:
Howard, Bocanegra, DeMerit, Onyewu (if healthy, obviously), Cherundolo, Donovan, Bradley, Clark, Beasley, Dempsey, Altidore.
Also have Edu hanging around, and possibly Jones.
Obviously, they’re going to need a striker to step up and the central defense with Onyewu not playing may need a boost, but there is no one on that Gold Cup lineup in there, and – if anything – it showed how poor the quality of play is in MLS right now.
Slovenia and Algeria both can play, or else they wouldn’t be at the World Cup, but the US – player for player – is better and should go through. I guess we’ll have plenty of time to discuss such stuff in the next 6 months.
Ray, the point was that the US team you listed had until that point in time featured in more qualifying games cumulatively this cycle than the Mexican team that played that day. The side El Tri fielded that ay featured several players who had NEVER been capped prior to the summer of 2009. Every single US starter had been capped prior to the summer other than Heaps.
We were not comparing the squads the US fielded at Azteca but the squads US and Mexico fielded in that particular match. Several apologists for the performance have stated Mexico was playing their top squad, which is just simply an ignorant statement.
While it is true the Mexican side that featured at the end of qualifying featured more Gold Cup players, much of that was a product of those guys seizing the chance to impress Aguirre and work their way into the squad.
I also disagree about the game at Azteca. The US failed to put a shot on goal for the final 81 minutes of the match, and the fouls US defenders got away with cautions for, often times result in sending offs for other teams at Azteca.
Had the fouls Bocanegra and DeMerit committed been by let’s say Honduran players versus Mexico they almost certainly would have seen Red. So the US, got breaks from Hector Moreno for its reputation and somehow kept 11 players on the pitch, placing 10 behind the ball and still was shelled the entire second half.
Man for man the US should rout Slovenia. I am not sure about Algeria, because man for man they are comparable to the US, and actually have more players, playing regularly in European top flight leagues. However, I don’t rate Algeria very highly because they, like most North African sides tend to be disorganized and take left over managers from former colonial powers.
Slovenia, on the other hand is very well drilled and tactically savvy. I don’t think the US team has a tactical sense- they lose their shape too easily and get chippy in big matches. The Spain game was an exception, but not the primary data point. All too often, the US has lost its shape at the back in 2009 and leaked second half goals. Slovenia is a counter attacking side and if the US loses its shape in that game, as Russia did, the US will lose.
The US should beat Algeria not man for man (where again the teams are very comparable) but do to organization. The USSF has secured the best facilities and best training methods to prepare for the World Cup and Algeria may or may not have a truly organized camp. By the third match, the Algerians may be done and gift the US three points. Then again, the US has never performed well in that last group game regardless of quality of opposition. The Poland game reminds us that despite a horrible first two matches, a team can suddenly find its form versus the US.
“Granted, getting beat 5-0 is embarassing, but that team stinks. Who are you considering “A” team players off that team? Holden and possibly Ching. No one else will ever see a pitch in South Africa, except on TV.”
I don’t think it’s difficult to imagine Goodson or Marshall seeing the pitch if Onyewu isn’t ready. Regardless, they were in the lineups to close qualifying.
Pearce has been a full-squad fixture off-and-on during qualifying and was on the Confederations Cup team.
Beckerman was named to the team and played during the next-to-last round of qualifying.
Robbie Rogers was called in for the last round of qualifying, played and had assists against Costa Rica, and has to be considered likely to make the team if Dempsey or Donovan have to becoming the second striker.
Whether you think these players are going to be factors in South Africa or not, these are all players who in the current picture, and there are viable scenarios where they start matches. Well … not Beckerman, and maybe no Pearce.
People still say this was a U.S. “C” side. Add in Ching and Holden, who you mentioned, to the players listed above and you have seven of the fourteen players who appeared in that final.
The contention I made on the pod was that number was comparable to the number you would come up with if you undertook the same exercise with the Mexican team. As you see above, there are a lot of grey areas, and somebody else’s numbers may not come out the same as mine. I can accept that, so let me state what I’d like my overarching point to be:
I reject the idea that there was an A-to-C disparity between the U.S. and Mexican sides in the Gold Cup final.
Kartik, I think you and I feel exactly the same about Slovenia and Algeria, and I don’t want to make it like the US is going to beat them 4-0 or anything. Obviously, should beat and do beat are two different things. Slovenia will be very organized and Algeria has some players that can do some damage (very similar to Ghana in 2006 I think as a third game).
What I took out of the Gold Cup final was that Mexico finally figured out guys like Dos Santos and Vela need to be in the lineup (on a side note, Dos Santos hasn’t played at all this season for Tottenham and that has to be a little worrying for Mexico, although it looks like he’s getting loaned to Portsmouth for the rest of the season. Avram Grant may keep that team up yet. But I digress).
Meanwhile, on the US side, Bradley learned that the guys you’re talking about Richard (Beckerman, Rogers, Pearce – who granted did see some time in the Confederations Cup, Goodson, and – to some extent – Marshall) cannot be trusted against good international competition. In fact, while Bradley can never come out publicly and say it, he may be in people like Ricardo Clark and Stu Holden’s ear and telling them to get the heck to Europe while they can.
To me, basically the Gold Cup final was the Mexican League All-Stars against the MLS All-Stars, and the MLS showed just how far they have to go to catch up to the Mexican league, let alone European Leagues.
But, as far as Mexico vs. the US, it was fairly irrelevant to me whether it was B vs B or B vs C, it certainly wasn’t A vs A.
And, while Mexico is improved, they really weren’t impressive in any game up to the Gold Cup final (they beat Costa Rica in PKs in the semis). They did follow it up with a very impressive 3-0 win at Costa Rica in qualifying, and the Gold Cup did seem to restore plenty of confidence in them. But they have a lot of questions as well.
As always, just one man’s opinion, and this World Cup is really shaping up to be one for the ages. And if I hit the lottery, I will be there to see it in person.
Good point Ray- I made that Mexican League all star vs MLS All star comparison on Twitter during the game and got ripped to pieces by MLS apologists.
But, as far as Mexico vs. the US, it was fairly irrelevant to me whether it was B vs B or B vs C, it certainly wasn’t A vs A.
Great way to look at things.
How much to engage in the rhetoric of your critics is something with which Im’ still dealing. This A, B, C-thing is the meme of people who have an agenda that isn’t analysis, and while I think that agenda has a definite place in sport, it’s something I need to dwell upon.